When to move on to a frame work?

[cydo]

When should you move onto a framework like Phaser? I have a pretty good understanding of the basics of programming I think. Variables, Loops, Arrays, Conditionals, Switches, Functions, Objects and Scope. Should I learn to make games with just Vanilla JS? Or should I use a frame work and let it take care of all the heavy lifting?

[Milton]

Why would you want to invent the wheel again?

Studios use frameworks (engines). Game development is so much easier using Unity or Unreal.
I think even Construct or GameMaker is more viable than Phaser.

Phaser is excellent for (very) small teams that focus on web games.
Vanilla JS is like people programming in Assembly. Cool, but not very effective.

[cydo]

I've taken many udemy courses and they always say learn whats going on under the hood instead of using a framework at first. But you would suggest using Unity or Game Maker over using Phaser? I own many books and courses on Unity and C# as well as game maker. I was learning JS to get a job possibly as a web developer and figured I could learn JS and make games with phaser. Tbh though I just want to make small mobile games for a living but I know how hard it is. So I went more to JS so I could fall into being a web developer too...Sort of killing 2 birds with one stone i guess

[Milton]

It all depends. Companies that want to make money with smartphones don't learn what's under the hood. They just combine the best components and fiddle a bit.
Very few people know how electronic components actually work.
Mobile games with Phaser is not optimal. That's exactly what Construct and Gamemaker do. If you want more control, lower level etc, you would maybe go for Phaser.
Web devs mainly need to know CSS...

[cydo]

I see, well maybe Ill look more into game maker, I tried unity but I am on the fence about it. I really only have a interest in 2d games not so much 3d. Wish true valhalla's book was out already so I can learn to make some of the stuff he makes. He's what inspired my interest in HTML5 tbh.

[Milton]

True Valhalla is the perfect example. He is successful because he uses GM. Nothing low level there. Just good graphics, and good gameplay.

[cydo]

I just don't where to really learn game maker 2, all the books seem to be old versions

[Milton]

Their forum is very active, I'm sure they can help you out.
You could also try Panda2. That's also very mobile oriented, and the forum is very helpful. Bit harder though...

[cydo]

I tried out panda2, a youtube channel called game from scratch showed it and it looked cool. But I didn't really like it. Think Ill stick with GMS2 and just try to find some good resources to learn from.

[mattstyles]

On 9/24/2018 at 6:56 PM, Milton said:

Web devs mainly need to know CSS...

Trololololo

He he, its all good.

A large chunk of modern web dev is application development, given newer technologies for doing it there is a very good argument that the average web dev only needs rudimentary knowledge of CSS and the tooling takes care of most of the crud you have to deal with when relying on CSS.

On 9/24/2018 at 6:40 PM, cydo said:

I was learning JS to get a job possibly as a web developer and figured I could learn JS and make games with phaser

This is the key driver in everything you said.

If you want a job at the end of this adventure then using tools like Unity, GM2 and Construct will only prepare you for a job in those fields.

If you want a job more generally that utilises web dev (everything from gaming, to static site stuff to full blown applications) you'll need to know the language. In fact, not just one, you'll need to understand HTML, CSS and JS and, even then, you might well have to know how JS operates in different environments (Node vs Browsers, for example).

With that in mind the question is:

"Will using a framework prepare me more generally for a JS development role?"

The conventional loudest voice, until recently, in this field is that (as you have hinted) frameworks will hide you from the actual language.

Thankfully, the opposition to this view are getting noisier.

Frameworks hide details to the advantage of speeding up development.

What this means in practical terms is that you will be more productive if you reduce the amount of code you write, and using a framework, or, more generally, using modules or packages or libraries, reduce the amount of code you write. The practical up-shoot here is that you end up writing the code that directly does something in your application.

The answer to the above question also hinges around what sort of learner you are. Again, it usually falls in to two camps:

* "I like seeing things happening", "I like to visualise changes" or "I get demoralised if I can't see what is happening" -> if you find yourself agreeing with any of these then use a framework/library immediately to rocket fuel your productivity. Get things out there, get them finished if you can (don't get hung up on this whilst learning, but it is an important skill).

* "I like knowing how things work" or "Whilst learning I like to get my hands dirty" -> if you agree with these then ditch the framework, at least in the short term. Sure, we could have an argument about how far you go, but, if JS is your language and you're primarily interested in getting something on the screen then the browser is your environment. No point in understanding what JS gets translated to to be run in a browser, JS is as low as you'd want to go.

 

[cydo]

8 hours ago, mattstyles said:

If you want a job at the end of this adventure then using tools like Unity, GM2 and Construct will only prepare you for a job in those fields.

If you want a job more generally that utilises web dev (everything from gaming, to static site stuff to full blown applications) you'll need to know the language. In fact, not just one, you'll need to understand HTML, CSS and JS and, even then, you might well have to know how JS operates in different environments (Node vs Browsers, for example).

So firstly if I had it my way I'd 150% make video games for a living not a second guess about it, I've made basic games like tetris, pong, brick breaker, flappy bird, asteroids and so on. Sure I had to do a lot of googling watch some tutorials but I made them with my own little spin. I used a combination of game maker and unity. I've also used Phaser CE long ago to make a endless runner, pet game and a few other games following Zenva tutorials. But not knowing JS well made me not understand nor enjoy the frame work or process and I felt like i was copy pasting not learning. But my whole I guess you could call it a road block is...everyone says how hard it is to get into the game industry and you can lose your job quite easily(like if a game fails, or you are bringing good ideas to the table). So I was like I'll learn web development, I read all about self taught people getting jobs and there's probably more jobs in web development than game development.(I'd try android development but you don't hear about self taught ppl getting jobs...so i got discouraged)

 

8 hours ago, mattstyles said:

"I like knowing how things work" or "Whilst learning I like to get my hands dirty" -> if you agree with these then ditch the framework, at least in the short term. Sure, we could have an argument about how far you go, but, if JS is your language and you're primarily interested in getting something on the screen then the browser is your environment. No point in understanding what JS gets translated to to be run in a browser, JS is as low as you'd want to go.

This is definitely me, I like to understand everything not just type this and that and everything works. I need to know why things are working and doing what they are doing or I feel like I'm lack for a better word "cheating" myself.

[mattstyles]

17 hours ago, cydo said:

Sure I had to do a lot of googling watch some tutorials but I made them with my own little spin

Pro tip: this never changes!

17 hours ago, cydo said:

But not knowing JS well made me not understand nor enjoy the frame work or process and I felt like i was copy pasting not learning

I tend to type things out from tutorials or code snippets if I'm not comfortable with the underlying language or concepts in play. Sure, its time consuming, but, you'll be thinking about it whilst typing so you'll be learning.

17 hours ago, cydo said:

So I was like I'll learn web development, I read all about self taught people getting jobs and there's probably more jobs in web development than game development

I'm not going to tell you not to follow your dream, but, this approach sounds very pragmatic.

Don't go thinking its easier to get a job as a self-taught person though, depending on where you live, web development is very competitive (although probably not as competitive as web game development), anything that makes you stand out from the others is a good thing, and that includes some sort of formal training. It most certainly is not necessary (for most jobs out there) but, maybe consider if you could do a short course, it shows you are serious, but, it is usually time consuming and costly so may not fit your circumstances.

Have a think about how you want to stand out. Hiring managers often have less time than they would like to review candidates, having easily accessible examples of your work (hobby work) is very useful, both the output and the source code.

17 hours ago, cydo said:

(I'd try android development but you don't hear about self taught ppl getting jobs...so i got discouraged)

I'm not convinced this is true, but might be a geographical thing. It is incredibly hard for us to find decent Android devs, incredibly hard, even if blew the budget on it, conversely, finding a decent web developer (particularly if we could up the budget) would be relatively straight forward.

[cydo]

1 hour ago, mattstyles said:

I tend to type things out from tutorials or code snippets if I'm not comfortable with the underlying language or concepts in play. Sure, its time consuming, but, you'll be thinking about it whilst typing so you'll be learning.

I type everything I don't actually copy and paste it, but i don't write my own code from scratch. I follow the tutorials typing everything and maybe changing variable names to things that help me remember what they are for,  And I think I over comment...

 

1 hour ago, mattstyles said:

I'm not convinced this is true, but might be a geographical thing. It is incredibly hard for us to find decent Android devs, incredibly hard, even if blew the budget on it, conversely, finding a decent web developer (particularly if we could up the budget) would be relatively straight forward.

Idk if its true but on YouTube or even the Medium app I find countless stories about how people got a job doing web development from being self taught, but if i do a search for that as an android developer nothing comes up. I'm sure there are people that do get hired but I just don't find any evidence and also the stories of people getting into web development always have tips on how they did it.

 

However making websites doesn't really interest me, but I do enjoy programming. But I'm 25 and I can't bet it all on getting into game development especially with no degree. I'm an HVAC Technician that absolutely dreads his job, and feel like I can accomplish so much more than settling for "this job", but I don't have the means to afford college at this time.

[jest]

On 9/27/2018 at 9:40 AM, cydo said:

Idk if its true but on YouTube or even the Medium app I find countless stories about how people got a job doing web development from being self taught, but if i do a search for that as an android developer nothing comes up. I'm sure there are people that do get hired but I just don't find any evidence and also the stories of people getting into web development always have tips on how they did it.

Web development is all the craze because it's easy cross platform. Porting a web game for example, to an Android app wouldn't force you to redo the whole thing.

 

On 9/27/2018 at 9:40 AM, cydo said:

 

However making websites doesn't really interest me, but I do enjoy programming. But I'm 25 and I can't bet it all on getting into game development especially with no degree.

Degrees, college, man... I know that feel, it's asinine. I'm probably not gonna get a degree myself in CS, going to focus on creating a portfolio of videos and projects that I can show. Usually the  job requirements are "4 year degree" and "4 years+ experience" but I'm optimistic that it's flexible.

[Prozi]

I had no college in IT when I started my first official non freelance job

Now I have more than 8+ years of proffesional experience

The skills is all that matters the college is obsolete information