A HTML5 Beginner, Guide Me Please

[cydo]

Hey everyone so I started my venture into programming months ago and started out with game maker language but didn't think I would ever get a job writing games in GML and so I stopped learning it and started learning HTML CSS and just recently 3 months or so ago got into what I thought would be super scary JavaScript, I dabbled in all the languages I could tbh and they all seemed so daunting.  I didn't know what to do so I went back to HTML, CSS and JS. I think I understand JavaScript at a beginner level. My question how ever is.Is trying to study HTML5 game development as a sole hope to get a job doing it viable? I mean I can sit here and learn more on making websites but its not really my interest at all. I love games, playing em coming up with ideas to make em all of it. I would of learned Unity or Unreal but C# and C++ seemed so confusing to me, I like how JavaScript writes it just makes sense to me. But then when I start to make games and I've made some with tutorials with the Phase framework. I just get confused if I try to do it on my own. With Phaser I've done many many tutorials but I still can't seem to set out and just write it on my own. I just want to be able to one day make a game and have some kid stumble upon a kick ass browser game like I did years ago when I saw my neighbor playing Tibia and later RuneScape and thought it was the coolest thing ever. I know that RuneScape was originally written in Java and now C++, and Tibia was always a downloaded game idk what language it was written int but it does have a browser option now and I think thats amazing. Great games accessible anywhere with no download.

Sources I've used to make games with Phaser

Zenva Academy

Interphase

From Null to Full

Lessmilks 2d Platformer

Lessmilks Flappy Bird

And I've even learned to just make games on the canvas with these 2 sources (no game engine.)
GameKedo Intro to Canvas

GameKedo Follow Up to beginner course

Basically What I'm asking is if I should continue down this route and try to flesh out my skills and get a job for game development and what other sources or routes can I take to get there? 

 

[blackmoondev]

The road you are following is quite good. Work hard, learn stuff, make games (even though they'll be bad ones at the beginning). 
You could try to get some more formal education (like a programming course of something), maybe it'll be a bit easier for you to get some programming concepts. 

If your goal is to get a job in the company that makes games - I would suggest to learn at least some Unity. From what I see around - job offers for Unity developers are everywhere.
If your goal is to just make cool games that could be played in the browser - by all means continue the path you're on. 

Good luck:)

[cydo]

5 hours ago, blackmoondev said:

The road you are following is quite good. Work hard, learn stuff, make games (even though they'll be bad ones at the beginning). 
You could try to get some more formal education (like a programming course of something), maybe it'll be a bit easier for you to get some programming concepts. 

If your goal is to get a job in the company that makes games - I would suggest to learn at least some Unity. From what I see around - job offers for Unity developers are everywhere.
If your goal is to just make cool games that could be played in the browser - by all means continue the path you're on. 

Good luck:)

I have many many many courses for all sorts of different programming languages, from web to android(java) to unity(C#) and unreal(C++). But I honestly don't know what path to follow .I want to make kick ass games but I want to make a career out of it. I don't have the luxury of going to college or anything like that to be formally taught programming but I know I can be so much more then a retail worker. It's just overwhelming with so many options out there and paths to take and no clear guidance. If I understand variables, functions, local scopre, global scope, if, else if, else and and pretty good understand of while and for loops, but little experience with arrays except for knowing what they are and knowing what a object is can I pick up c# or something else easier? JavaScript is technically my first real programming language.

[mattstyles]

12 hours ago, cydo said:

If I understand variables, functions, local scopre, global scope, if, else if, else and and pretty good understand of while and for loops, but little experience with arrays except for knowing what they are and knowing what a object is can I pick up c# or something else easier?

It sounds like you still have a lot to learn.

From your earlier post you are spreading way too thin, that might not be too much of a problem whilst learning at the very start, but you'd still be a long way from getting a job at that stage. You need to demonstrate to an employer that you can make a contribution, even if its a small one, then they can work on getting you a mentor and helping you to develop. If you're not at a stage to contribute at all then it's unlikely a company is going to take a punt on you, or, at least, you'll limit the ones who can afford to do so.

At some stage you're going to have to pick a discipline (at least for now) and try and get a job with that tech. If this is Unity and there are plenty of jobs around then go full bore for that, certainly there are many many JS jobs around but considerably less for gaming, at this stage though you simply need to learn your craft, if this means you end up writing web applications or on some sort of widget library then it actually doesn't matter, you'd be getting paid to do a programming job and this is what you're going to need to do to really accelerate your learning (on that, if you find yourself in a position of luxury with 2 job offers, assuming you can live on both wages offered, pick the job with the best learning opportunities, even if they pay less, at this stage it is learn learn learn, you can earn earn earn later and be confident you have the skills to do so).

Once you have a few years of that under your belt you'll know much more about programming in general (check out design patterns and make sure your logic is up to scratch) and you'll be in a much better position to make decisions about how you want to continue and where you want to go. Certainly you'll be more likely to get a Unity job (for example) by saying, 'well, I've done 2 to 3 years of C# development for this agency and here is a list of successful things I've worked on, no gaming but all working and paid-for software' than you will by saying 'I've hacked around Unity for a little bit, here is a game I made that kind-of works', preferably, by the time you have this experience you will have worked hard in your spare time to create some games, and they'll be infinitely higher quality than your work today because you'll be a better programmer.

Don't underestimate the amount of work this takes. A good adage is that programming is so hard that it'll take you 10 years of solid effort to get any good at it. You need to commit yourself to this if you want any proper success, it takes sacrifice and dedication, it takes learning and enthusiasm, its a hard slog but its an incredible industry to be a part of, its exciting and fast-paced, it encourages thought, learning and decision-making, it empowers developers rather than managers, it encourages collaboration and open discussion, its a wonderful world to be in, if a little tiring! 

Good luck in your quest!

 

[cydo]

1 hour ago, mattstyles said:

From your earlier post you are spreading way too thin, that might not be too much of a problem whilst learning at the very start, but you'd still be a long way from getting a job at that stage. You need to demonstrate to an employer that you can make a contribution, even if its a small one, then they can work on getting you a mentor and helping you to develop. If you're not at a stage to contribute at all then it's unlikely a company is going to take a punt on you, or, at least, you'll limit the ones who can afford to do so.

It sounds too me like you're saying I don't really know anything. I've sunk months and months into learning html5, CSS, and now JS. Every tutorial I watch and every class on a topic I sign up for it's always the same.

• Variables
• Primitive Data Types
• Arrays
• Functions
• Operators
• Conditionals
• Objects
• Methods
• Constants
• etc..

I know there are more advanced topics out there but why wouldn't' I be able to get a job where I am now..Sure I can't build elaborate programs or anything like that but I have built what I consider nicely designed websites for someone who isn't a designer even though they are made with front end tech. I've even built a few games even if they are remakes like Pong and Brick Breaker. I was able to make a Pet Simulator, Donkey Kong Clone, Endless runner and even a Galaga styled game using Phaser.io. I realized while learning that I didn't really like making websites but games were always fun so I thought JavaScript game development might be better but seeing that you say more jobs are in Unity. I am going to learn that instead. I feel like  I understand the syntax of a language just fine but I don't have enough experience creating projects and that's why an employer won't hire me. I need to demonstrate that I understand a language and I can implement it comfortably in a project I am assigned. I know I am all over the place and I need to just stick to one language but everything I read says C# is way to hard for a beginner, but haven't I at least climbed past the beginner stage by now?

 

[Milton]

1 hour ago, cydo said:

I know I am all over the place and I need to just stick to one language but everything I read says C# is way to hard for a beginner, but haven't I at least climbed past the beginner stage by now?

13 hours ago, cydo said:

little experience with arrays except for knowing what they are

Sounds to me like you mainly follow 'tutorials' (actually more like cookbooks) that tell you exactly what to do. Anything you 'create' with that, won't have taught you much. It's a bit like an IKEA manual. That doesn't make you a carpenter.

Just get a good book. Maybe even something that prepares you for a certification. It only takes 1 exam, no college, or studies. When you're Java or C# certified, you're sure to find an entry job.

[cydo]

5 minutes ago, Milton said:

Sounds to me like you mainly follow 'tutorials' (actually more like cookbooks) that tell you exactly what to do. Anything you 'create' with that, won't have taught you much. It's a bit like an IKEA manual. That doesn't make you a carpenter.

Just get a good book. Maybe even something that prepares you for a certification. It only takes 1 exam, no college, or studies. When you're Java or C# certified, you're sure to find an entry job.

I do follow tons of tutorials! Like you have no idea. Over the years I have accumulated over 55 courses on Udemy to teach me various things like Web Development, Java, C# and C++..I have some books too but reading only gets me so far. I learn easier when someone tells me what something is and than shows me how I use it in a real example not a 1 + 1 = 0 type explanation. 

• Web Design with HTML, CSS, JavaScript and jQuery Set
• Web Game Developers CookBook

and also the 2 books I listed above.

There is no certification I can study for on HTML5, CSS, and JavaScript is there? I thought all I really had to do was learn the language and than be able to prove that I could create projects. Like have a portfolio and in a job interview when they ask me what I know I could be like I know HTML5, CSS, and JavaScript and look I made these things. As for you saying if I study for a certification and get it I'm sure to find a job does that also mean if I got the unity certification I would be able to get a job with just that?

I have this course Pass the Unity Certified Developer Exam as well as others to teach me unity and they do teach C# as well. Is that what I should really be aiming for? Studying and understanding C# till I can pass something like that. Obviously it doesn't have to be C# the same would be true if I went Java. tbh I don't really know what language too be set on and I think that's why I am so lost.

[Milton]

I would go for C#, because in my opinion it's actually easier than Java. And you could use it for Unity. I'm a Java certified programmer, and that's definitely more Business oriented.
I'm not sure about the Unity certification, seems rather on the light side (to put it mildly). I did the  '1Z0-851'. To give you an idea of what you need to know:

Section 4: Concurrency

• Write code to define, instantiate, and start new threads using both java.lang.Thread and java.lang.Runnable.
• Recognize the states in which a thread can exist, and identify ways in which a thread can transition from one state to another.
• Given a scenario, write code that makes appropriate use of object locking to protect static or instance variables from concurrent access problems.

Section 5: OO Concepts

• Develop code that implements tight encapsulation, loose coupling, and high cohesion in classes, and describe the benefits.
• Given a scenario, develop code that demonstrates the use of polymorphism. Further, determine when casting will be necessary and recognize compiler vs. runtime errors related to object reference casting.
• Explain the effect of modifiers on inheritance with respect to constructors, instance or static variables, and instance or static methods.
• Given a scenario, develop code that declares and/or invokes overridden or overloaded methods and code that declares and/or invokes superclass, or overloaded constructors.
• Develop code that implements "is-a" and/or "has-a" relationships.

Section 6: Collections / Generics

• Given a design scenario, determine which collection classes and/or interfaces should be used to properly implement that design, including the use of the Comparable interface.
• Distinguish between correct and incorrect overrides of corresponding hashCode and equals methods, and explain the difference between == and the equals method.
• Write code that uses the generic versions of the Collections API, in particular, the Set, List, and Map interfaces and implementation classes. Recognize the limitations of the non-generic Collections API and how to refactor code to use the generic versions. Write code that uses the NavigableSet and NavigableMap interfaces.
• Develop code that makes proper use of type parameters in class/interface declarations, instance variables, method arguments, and return types; and write generic methods or methods that make use of wildcard types and understand the similarities and differences between these two approaches.
• Use capabilities in the java.util package to write code to manipulate a list by sorting, performing a binary search, or converting the list to an array. Use capabilities in the java.util package to write code to manipulate an array by sorting, performing a binary search, or converting the array to a list. Use the java.util.Comparator and java.lang.Comparable interfaces to affect the sorting of lists and arrays. Furthermore, recognize the effect of the "natural ordering" of primitive wrapper classes and java.lang.String on sorting.

 

 

This probably looks like complete gibberish to you at the moment. This may be overkill for a beginning game developer, but if you pass an exam like this, you will get a job as a programmer.

[cydo]

30 minutes ago, Milton said:

This probably looks like complete gibberish to you at the moment. This may be overkill for a beginning game developer, but if you pass an exam like this, you will get a job as a programmer.

Yeah I have no idea what any of that means, but in all of the courses I have they just go over the syntax and do some projects. I assume I just need to do some research on a good book and buy one that just flat out teaches the programming languages not these how to make a snake game or how to make a brick breaker code a longs that I am doing also If I learned C# it would be purely for unity so I can make games. I know java can be used to make games to but its slower than C# and isn't C# and C++ industry standards. I would love to just stick to JavaScript but if a different route suits my goals then I will start from square one again.

[scheffgames]

I'm afraid to give you advice at this point as not to encourage you do quit your job or something like that and start coding games in your basement. I'm saying this because I have a feel from your post that you're a bit confused or undecided about your career choices. But..here it goes:

1)Without proper Computer Science education or a decent portofolio you probably (most likely) won't get a job in the industry. Maybe as an intern - so no pay.

2)Without a basic grasp of essential programming concepts chances are that you won't be able to make an original game by yourself. Oh, you'll implement this feature and that feature but in the end they won't tie up together to form a structured functioning system. It will be just bits and parts. And that's not bad - that's expected - you'll (hopefully) learn that you're poorly equipped in terms of programming knowledge and acquire the necessary knowledge.

My recommendation is that you pick a language that you're comfortable with and start learning it well. My absolute recomandation is C# and Unity (game engine). 

Invest a week or so to read a basic book about it and than start applying that knowledge by creating small finished games - pong, brick breaker, tic-tac-toe, etc. If you fail at your first project go over the things learned in the book again and see where you made mistakes. Try again. And so on until you're comfortable and confident to use a programming language to create and finish small (working) projects. That's step one.

Now  pick a more advanced book on that language and (try to) read it. Even if you don't understand certain features or they seem counter-intuitive try to apply them in your next project - a little bigger this time - maybe a flappy bird clone, tetris, mario even. If you'll fail go over the book again, use google and stack overflow to try and understand and try again. Once you're decently familiar with more advanced concepts you'll be ready for step three - this was step two.

You're comfortable with a programming language and you finished some small projects (and left unfinished plenty more but that's how the road goes). You can try your hand now at something more complex and maybe you already think of monetizing your game somehow - Google Play app, sponsorships, maybe even Steam. Pick a game genre you like, have fun coming with a story/concepts/gameplay ideas and put them on paper. Do a bit of research to see how others have done it (bookmark the links - you'll going to use them) and try to emulate their techniques in your first serious official project - the one that will bring you some sweet cash. Finish it, be proud of it and put it in the wild (publish it). If you're lucky you'll get some money and recognition, if not you'll get negative feedback or even worse no feedback at all.

This will be your breaking point - you'll either curse the day you started making games and poured months/years of learning and hard work into it and quit or you'll clench your fists/slam the table and with new determination will start working on a new project again knowing perfectly well now that it's not all honey and milk.

At this step you can call yourself  a game developer and you'll travel this hard and beautiful road of failures and satisfactions with the rest of us (un)lucky bastards.

[mattstyles]

3 hours ago, cydo said:

but haven't I at least climbed past the beginner stage by now?

Have you got a job in programming? No? Then, no, you're still a beginner, arguably not even that, but I think that would be a terse thing to say, you've clearly made a good start. It takes a few years (at least) before you can even think about saying you are mid-level i.e. not beginner/junior.

3 hours ago, cydo said:

It sounds too me like you're saying I don't really know anything

Sorry it came over like that, certainly not my intention. But try not to be defensive either, I have got to at least 3 separate stages in my career (2 of which occurred whilst employed as a senior developer, 1 at a huge company) where I thought I was getting good, only to realise how little I know. Programming is that involved, you will constantly be learning. This is a good write up, one of the key take aways being "In all seriousness, though, don't expect to ever finish".

It sounds like you are a self-starter and able to learn independently, seeing a bit of your code or talking to you for 5 minutes in a phone interview would confirm/deny, don't underestimate how important that will be in getting your first job. It's a critical skill, one it sounds like you have.

3 hours ago, cydo said:

I realized while learning that I didn't really like making websites but games were always fun so I thought JavaScript game development might be better but seeing that you say more jobs are in Unity.

I've no idea, someone else mentioned Unity jobs, I haven't seen one, I wouldn't have thought there would be too many, but presumably you're trawling the job boards and talking to recruiters so you tell me!

I like your enthusiasm to follow your passion, I don't disagree with it, just that gaming jobs are pretty scarce, particularly entry-level, maybe its different where you live (or are willing to move to).

Milton's advice was superb, soak it up. Note that none of those things listed in the course stuff are language specific, there are a few references to some libs and functions to use to demonstrate your experience but you could rewrite those for a handful of different languages with minimal differences in language.

 

[cydo]

22 minutes ago, scheffgames said:

C# and Unity (game engine).

Can I ask why you recommend C# and the Unity Engine? As opposed to learning JavaScript and say Phaser.io or C++ and Unreal?

 

5 minutes ago, mattstyles said:

Sorry it came over like that, certainly not my intention. But try not to be defensive either,

I wasn't trying to be defensive I just feel like I have made progress from not knowing anything to being able to at least understand syntax and make terrible websites and even answer some of the easier questions out there people have on things like if statements, and that is at least worth some recognition. I am completely self taught no formal education or anything. I saw Game Maker Studio one day and said, Hey I want to make a game! So I went out and started learning and soon realized there is more options to learn than I could imagine. I know I will never know everything and I will never stop learning and I don't want to. I would love to one day be able to say I know Java, C#, C++,JavaScript and this and that frame work or game engine what do you need me to do. But I know that is a goal that will only be achievable after years and years of grinding towards it.

 

10 minutes ago, mattstyles said:

I like your enthusiasm to follow your passion, I don't disagree with it, just that gaming jobs are pretty scarce, particularly entry-level, maybe its different where you live (or are willing to move to).

I had a feeling gaming specific jobs are scarce being that I search job boards at least 4x a day(Maybe that's cause I hate my current job) but any programming jobs if at all that are posted are for Senior Developers with more knowledge than a million of me put together could have and they are posted maybe once every few months. I am not against moving and I am willing to I mean I know where I live there are barely any opportunities as opposed some where like Silicon Valley.

 

So let me ask you guys this. Instead of making developing games my current goal should I make it a future goal. And at this point in time just focus on grasping one programming language like for instance JavaScript I have the most resources at my disposal to learn JS and Web Development and just try to get a job doing just that. Making Websites primarily front end and then transition to back end. Once I have a full grasp on something like JavaScript should I than in my own free time start learning things like C# and C++? My other problem is I don't really understand how a person goes about making just programs like lets say MicroSoft Word, AVAST or even STEAM. but I understand how a person makes a Website using a text editor and browser or a video game with a game engine or a mobile app with Android SDK and Java. and thats probably why I was so insistent on learning JavaScript or C# with Unity as opposed to choosing other languages since I didn't really know how to use them for things like program development for companies like Microsoft. 

This is slightly off topic:

Also I know and I am surprised no one has said this to me yet but Python is apparently a super easy language to learn but I don't really see its value to me in getting to my goal. I know you can make games in Python and there's something called Django and Flask to make Web applications too.

This topic has drifted quite far off course of gaming and more into moving me into the right direction with programming in general and I am sorry for that since this isn't really the place for a discussion like this, but I really appreciate you guys taking the time to help me advance in my life and get to where I want to be.

[Milton]

I think it is wrong to start learning with a dynamic, untyped language like Javascript. Python at least is typed.
I started with assembly, then C, then C++, and only then came the fun languages like Perl, Ruby, Python, JS, etc.
The problem with 'dynamic untyped' is that you don't understand/learn what's going on. You don't understand memory, pointers, references, garbage collection etc.

If you want to get a programming job, either go the hard route and get a certification, or learn something that not a lot of people know (well). The average Perl job pays twice what a Java/C# one does. And is easier and more fun... Or maybe XSLT. Quite easy, and a lot of demand.

[cydo]

50 minutes ago, Milton said:

I think it is wrong to start learning with a dynamic, untyped language like Javascript. Python at least is typed.
I started with assembly, then C, then C++, and only then came the fun languages like Perl, Ruby, Python, JS, etc.
The problem with 'dynamic untyped' is that you don't understand/learn what's going on. You don't understand memory, pointers, references, garbage collection etc.

If you want to get a programming job, either go the hard route and get a certification, or learn something that not a lot of people know (well). The average Perl job pays twice what a Java/C# one does. And is easier and more fun... Or maybe XSLT. Quite easy, and a lot of demand.

Ok than if you were in my shoes. No formal education just a beginner who doesn't really know what to do what would you do and why. I thought you should learn languages like python and javascript first than move onto C# and C++ well thats what I read all over the internet. They all say start with python learn JavaScript for the web etc etc.

[Milton]

I think if you start with a scripting language (dynamic), you will find it very hard to ever understand a 'programming' language (static).
You need to understand terms like 'dynamic/static, typed/untyped'. Dynamic languages are ok for Webapps and scripting (text manipulation etc).
Microsoft Word is created with a static language. Usually, most things '.exe' are static.

If you're not interested in ever making an '.exe' (apart from using cocoon or xdk or something), and basically just writing scripts, instead of programs, you can stick with JS or Python. It will be very hard to find a job, unless you specialize in niche languages like Perl or even Cobol.
Another option would be XSLT, which is a 'functional language'. A bit strange at first, but a lot of fun once you get the hang of it. No good for games, mostly just doing stuff with text, but highly in demand.

But again, my choice would be certification for C#.

[cydo]

13 minutes ago, Milton said:

you can stick with JS or Python. It will be very hard to find a job, unless you specialize in niche languages like Perl or even Cobol.

I'm not sure I understand why it would be hard to find a job? Isn't JavaScript an in demand language currently and ranking higher than C# in terms of employment rate? I have never heard of Perl or Cobol though and I was originally just interested in making web applications but you can see I now I am starting to shift what I want to do. Is your reasoning behind learning C# because its a highly sought after enterprise language? I don't really want to work for a company making applications for everyday use like a word program or anything like that. I would like to make games and if that is too far out of my reach at the moment I can settle for  aiming for entry level Web Development and just making game making a hobby. 

[Milton]

Because you are not qualified? If you think you can learn enough Webdevelopment to convince an employer, go for it.
Niche languages like Perl and Cobol have few people that can fill the vacancies. Much easier to get the job if you can do something no one else can...

[cydo]

Just now, Milton said:

Because you are not qualified? If you think you can learn enough Webdevelopment to convince an employer, go for it.

Why are you getting mad? All I am saying is why couldn't someone learn enough JavaScript/Web Development or what ever programming language for that matter and be able to get a job. Why do they have to go get a certification. I don't understand why if some one took the time read the books used all the resources they could to learn a certain programming language any programming language and decided one day to apply for a job why wouldn't they get hired. If you can do something do it well and prove it whats the problem? A piece of paper imo doesn't prove anything you could spend thousands of dollars going to college and learn nothing where as someone who doesn't have that luxury can grind day in an day out and know more than that college graduate by learning on their own reading books and using online sources. I don't want to sound like a dick here but from everything you have said you make it seem like if you don't have a college degree or study some languages in a certain way to pass some standardized test than you will never be able to amount to anything and that's wrong.

 

I understand and everyone else in here understands that I am not qualified to get a job, I clearly understand that being I admitted I thought I knew more than I really do and its been stated multiple times that I am still a beginner. I get I asked for help and guidance on what I should do and everyone one here is simply doing just that. But wouldn't I be fine if I learned enough JavaScript that I could make some cool kick ass websites even some cheesy little games? I already have the HTML and CSS down pat. I don't have a lot of grasp on JavaScript yet I have sunk a lot of time and effort into it getting to where I am now. Not just time and effort though I bought a lot of courses and books and now I feel like I made all the wrong choices and C# was the way to go. But couldn't I just suck it up tough it out and learn a fair amount of JavaScript so I can at least get a job in Web Development or put together a HTML5 game? This way I don't have to start from square one again and get confused all over. Than I could take my knowledge to C# or Perl or all these other languages you listed that are now confusing me even more.

[Milton]

I wasn't getting mad? (Try imagining me saying it nicely  )

I'm just saying it's hard to get a job since you have no qualifications. I've done my share of hiring, and for a webdev vacancy, you get hundreds of applicants. To start with, we dumped everyone without a degree... That would still leave a hundred or so. Only then the portfolio matters.

If you want a job as a programmer, without having qualifications, do something no one else does. You can learn Perl in a couple of weeks. You apply, and since you're either the only one, or maybe one of the few, you'll have a much better chance of getting in.

[cydo]

32 minutes ago, Milton said:

I'm just saying it's hard to get a job since you have no qualifications. I've done my share of hiring, and for a webdev vacancy, you get hundreds of applicants. To start with, we dumped everyone without a degree...

Why though I understand if they have shotty work and don't understand things but what if they had an amazing portfolio?

32 minutes ago, Milton said:

If you want a job as a programmer, without having qualifications, do something no one else does.

But Idk what languages people don't know well you say Perl and these other ones but I have no idea what they are what they are used for etc. And if I am confused on things like JavaScript and C# intimidates me how can I learn them easily?

[Milton]

7 hours ago, cydo said:

Why though I understand if they have shotty work and don't understand things but what if they had an amazing portfolio?

Because a degree shows you can learn. It doesn't really matter what degree. When there are hundreds of applicants, you can't start with the portfolio's.

 

7 hours ago, cydo said:

But Idk what languages people don't know well you say Perl and these other ones but I have no idea what they are what they are used for etc. And if I am confused on things like JavaScript and C# intimidates me how can I learn them easily?

Because these niche languages are much more 'limited'. They are used for very specific tasks. Perl is mostly used in publishing, Cobol in finances. Then there are some 'difficult' ones like Erlang, Haskell, etc, that are geared toward science.

[mattstyles]

9 hours ago, cydo said:

All I am saying is why couldn't someone learn enough JavaScript/Web Development or what ever programming language for that matter and be able to get a job

You can, in my opinion, but without a qualification its hard to get in front of someone to convince them you can actually do the job advertised. As Milton has already explained, many companies have so many applications that ditching any non-degree peeps is a quick way to trim that list, yes, you might miss a star, but its a numbers game. Some companies will have more time to review CV's, but at this stage its about maximising your chances of getting a job.

9 hours ago, cydo said:

I already have the HTML and CSS down pat

Be careful with this attitude, its unlikely that you do. CSS in particular is a very tricky little language, its not really Turing complete and its incredibly hard (possibly impossible) to use in a nice way, particularly for complex apps. I doubt you know exactly how each browser parses and uses assets, how they render content, what the repaint/reflow cycle looks like. Nor do you need to at this stage either, but if you think you know all of those disciplines already then you'll never look into learning more.

9 hours ago, cydo said:

But couldn't I just suck it up tough it out and learn a fair amount of JavaScript so I can at least get a job in Web Development or put together a HTML5 game?

Yes, you can, but be expected for a tough slog getting a job, and you'll probably need a bit of luck, although, to be fair, I think its really hard for any junior to get a job in Web Dev, there simply aren't too many companies able to carry you until you learn more. Hence why I'm saying you'll need to be able to prove yourself, and quickly, without a degree or formal qualification you need a good portfolio and you should look in to developing your Github profile, many employers will consider this and its easy for them to click through to a couple of your repositories to see your code, good or bad they'll need an idea of where you're at so they'll know how to use you.

No one here means to discourage you, we're all taking time to try and explain our experiences. 

If you're going down the JS route I'd advise to continue, there are plenty of Web Dev jobs around and you might find one that is more JS heavy than static content or markup based (my first job was very JS based, not really web dev at all, but, I mentioned luck earlier, I certainly got lucky, although I waited to change careers until I had another degree under my belt so a different situation to you). I also agree with Milton that learning JS first (or any dynamic language) definitely has its pitfalls, hence why most Degree-level courses will focus on languages like Java or even C. Just bare that in mind, even if you're too busy learning enough JS to get a job in the first place.

If I were you I'd have a look again at if you can get a qualification, its probably going to be expensive but if you can wrangle it, then it would be worth it. A degree (these can be completed remote and part-time, I did one whilst changing careers, buying my first house and my first child was born at the end of course, a tough slog for sure and a financial burden, but super beneficial in the long run) would be best but there are many other short courses around like Makers (London based) or Treehouse offer courses, if you live anywhere near a major city then maybe they have a company who runs these or you could always look at remote courses, I don't think any are certified but its certainly a bit of proof to a potential employer. On that...

9 hours ago, cydo said:

A piece of paper imo doesn't prove anything

Fine, thats your opinion, unfortunately it won't be the opinion of many potential employers, and even those that do sympathise with that opinion may not have the luxury of acting on it. As Milton explained, a bit of paper does indeed say a lot about who you are. Whether you like that or not is irrelevant.

Have a look and see if you can work it out so you can have such a bit of paper (just as an example, it took me 5 years whilst working full time to support it), if you can't, fine, dig in and see what you can do, but work out how you're going to get yourself noticed to an employer. I'd push that self-starter angle, but back it up with some evidence, a portfolio and a strong github profile will help, determination will be key, ride the knocks and never give up.

[scheffgames]

On 1/29/2017 at 10:54 PM, cydo said:

Can I ask why you recommend C# and the Unity Engine? As opposed to learning JavaScript and say Phaser.io or C++ and Unreal?

You'll learn OOP and good practices. You could also use C++ to do that but it will be harder. You ain't going to learn OOP if JS is your first language. And you're going to need OOP.

[cydo]

13 hours ago, mattstyles said:

Have a look and see if you can work it out so you can have such a bit of paper

I would go out and get a college degree if that was a route I could take, but working just barely over minimum wage living on my own barely staying a float just isn't an option for me. I have done parts of tree house and I have dozens of courses from Udemy. Thanks to all the sales I am able to scrape together courses and learn things. If a certification can help me get a job I am more able to go that route insteaad of a diploma a couple hundred dollars opposed to thousands of dollars just for classes and than hundreds more for books is just to much for me at the moment, Unless I strike gold tomorrow or win the lottery. I can go learn C# if that's what you guys suggest but then I am at square one and idk what resources I should use to learn and learn correctly. I am well aware of some sources being terrible and and not even really teaching what you need to know.

 

I have these courses at the moment but they are all around Unity Game Engine and if I learned anything from this post so far its that I would just be doing code along tutorials and not really learning anything...
C# with Unity
Pass the Unity Certified Developer Exam - Lifetime Access

Unity Game Development Academy: Make 2D & 3D Games

Game Development with Unity 5

I also did a quick google and found these resources: 
http://www.learncs.org/
https://www.sololearn.com/Course/CSharp/

http://www.bestprogramminglanguagefor.me/why-learn-c-sharp

[mattstyles]

8 hours ago, scheffgames said:

And you're going to need OOP

@scheffgames Why do you think that? I've used almost no OOP stuff for years and I'm developing complex JS apps (including ecommerce) for big companies, for better or worse JS has had a monumental shift towards functional and even reactive functional programming (which was one of its key tenets anyway).

I'd deffo say you need to learn the principles of OOP though, all of them, even those unavailable to JS developers.

7 hours ago, cydo said:

I can go learn C# if that's what you guys suggest

@cydo I don't, I think you should stick with JS, but thats just my opinion and largely based on my own experience and knowledge base. 

I think your take away from this all should simply be that you need to get yourself into a position to get a job, certification helps but you've explained you don't want to do that route so you'll need an alternative to be able to get in front of potential employers.