continued_at_new_forum The Wingnut Chronicles

[RaananW]

Long post, eh?  Not very appealing to read. 

So write shorter posts then? I remember once telling you you need a TL;dr after every post and you got awfully offended. 

The guidelines (I am pretty sure I never wrote rules, which is deliberate) are only there to help. EVERYONE. DK is always here. always answering, and I have NEVER seen him losing his world-famous patience. But he is right. He doesn't want to waste his time doing the work the user should have done. And let me tell you a little secret - he reads everything. every little sentence in every little post. (And sorry @Deltakosh for speaking in your name. @Everyone else - this is not an "official answer", this is just my opinion)

He didn't ask him "hey, did you go through all the tutorials before you post here?" or "do you understand the basics of babylonjs/Javascript/programming?". He simply said (SO MANY TIMES) that in order to help, he needs a bit of help from the user.

The user is not a customer. The user is not always right. Yes, there are beginners, yes, there are people who experiment with the framework, and this is wonderful!!! BUT! they came to the forum with a question. or a bug. which means they actually DID something. they have a running code that is not working. They have everything! All DK is asking - save everyone's time, show me a working example. Is this really too much to ask?

Here is a tl;dr for my noise post:

Want help? help us help you. Show a working or not-so-working demo so we can debug it together.

[Wingnut]

Raanan... I don't know what tl;dr means.  As far as I know, it means too long, didn't read.  I wasn't offended, but I answered with dc;dr...  don't care if you didn't read.  The posts I do are not meant for people who refuse to read them.  They are meant for those who DO read them. 

"They have a running code that is not working"?  That is a potential contradiction, yes?  No?

Yes, the user is not a customer, so let's not treat them like one.  Let's treat them like our friend, instead.  "Commune-ity", ya know?  Just my opinion, take it or leave it.  *shrug*

"in order to help, he needs a bit of help from the user".  That is a LONG way from "no playground, no help".

[RaananW]

1 minute ago, Wingnut said:

"They have a running code that is not working"?  That is a potential contradiction, yes?  No?

That's you being a wiseguy. You know exactly what I meant by that - the code compiles, runs on a browser, but babylon js throws an error.

The community is getting bigger and bigger, and it is wonderful. And when a system gets bigger and bigger, it is harder to maintain. 

tl;dr is just a concept. You can call it as you like. It is a way of summarizing your text. Want a dc:dr? fine. But then expect a very short answer - you didn't care about the 1st post, but it was important. So maybe you SHOULD care.

I just noticed that I marked the main sentences in my post in bold. exactly for that. this is my way of TL;dr. But if you don't care, it is your problem. not anyone else's. If you want DK to put a link to this post every time instead of writing a short sentence, I can surely try to convince him.

[Wingnut]

hmm.  If someone gives me a tl;dr...  too long, didn't read... that means THEY don't care enough to read the post.  The non-caring started with the person who said tl;dr.

But maybe I still don't understand tl;dr.  It sure looks like a "don't care to read your long post".  Maybe you can explain it to me.  To me it looks like somebody going off-topic and complaining about the length of the post... instead of talking about the topic of the post.  Maybe I need to get a mobile device so I can learn these abbreviations. 

[RaananW]

As you said - this post is noise for most users. They don't care about it. But they should. So me as a writer should try my best to get them to actually READ the post. This is tl;dr.

But it doesn't really matter. this was such a short part of my post to you, and , for some reason, it is the only thing of which you took notice. I take it you do understand that having a demo is not that far fetched. Wonderful.

[Wingnut]

It's not necessarily true that they don't care about it.  It might be too much work to translate.  And even after translation, it might not make sense.

Summarizing and brevity is great... I'm a big fan.  But, when something is reworded at least 2 different ways, and preferably 4 different ways, and a user runs it through a translator, there is a much better chance that one of those wordings... gets understood.  There is a reason for the over-explaining.

Sorry if I misunderstood your use of TL;dr.  I should not have counter-fired. It seemed like a very uncharacteristic comment from you.  I have never ever seen you be rude, even accidentally.  That comment was rude, as far as I understood it.  You're a hero of mine, R.   I think the world of you.

[RaananW]

I didn't mean to sound rude. Not usually my style

What I did try to say is that the main part of what I was trying to explain was lost or... not answered. As you encourage discussion (which is truly wonderful), it was important to actually have one.

You know my opinion - I think you are a huge part of this forum. It is wonderful that you are always ready to help. Whenever I see a 2 days old with no answers I wonder if you are fine (And I do hope you take it positively, because this is the way it was meant to be).

Being a father thought me a lot of things. One of things was that if you keep on feeding your kids with a spoon, they will never learn to eat by themselves, let alone eat with chopsticks. Now, I don't say that the forum users are "my children", but I do think that sometimes, "shaking" worlds and actually saying - hey, where is the playground (which blasted out as "no playground, no help") instead of "feeding them" the solution will make things better for everyone. Even this discussion! This would never have happened if DK wouldn't write this one single sentence. 

 

[GameMonetize]

Regarding my comment, it was not mean to be rude but fun..like a fun sentence in a commercial. Apparently I failed miserably (like the Babylon.js animations engine :))

Please do not over-engineer it.

 

[jerome]

no fun, no help either.

[Wingnut]

DK, nobody said anything about "failing".  Animation is just difficult to understand.  Maybe it's unavoidable.

And a smiley or winkie after "no playground, no help" would have made all the difference in the world.

As far as that animation, I can't get it to work at all (ie or ff).  At first, I had a problem with Animation._target... failing (undefined) in Animation.setValue.  Then that problem completely evaporated.  Right now I'm just lost... but maybe some grocery shopping will help.   

Here's my mess...

http://playground.babylonjs.com/#1HNQGW

Thanks for the thoughts and clarifications on the other matter.  We cool.  Hope I didn't anger anyone... but... I come to arms when I see something that doesn't look right.  That's who I am.  I am not a fan of any "or else" stuff, because that is forcing.  I could be over-reactive because I fervently oppose the widespread "or else" done by that thing... that... capitalism/economy-usage stuff.  Sorry if I let my other passion... seep into my forum ops.     That might be the case.  I saw "make a playground OR ELSE you get no help".  Good to hear that I misunderstood the intentions.

Hey Raanan... would you do "give-up the spoon OR ELSE you don't eat" to your kids?  To ANY living thing?  I doubt it.

[RaananW]

 

26 minutes ago, Wingnut said:

 

Hey Raanan... would you do "give-up the spoon OR ELSE you don't eat" to your kids?  To ANY living thing?  I doubt it.

No, if of course not. But this is not what I was saying. It's the same as "give a man a fish and he eats for one day" kind of thing. You can't deprive anyone from basic needs. That's why we have docs. But work together with me, and we'll eat dessert together. Happy parents, happy kids. ☺

I like this metaphor!

[GameMonetize]

I promise to not forget the smiley next time (Sounds like I still need to improve my humor in english)

 

Regarding animation question, do you mind starting a fresh thread with the context? Thanks a lot (And you already have the PG so you're good !)

[Wingnut]

I began my in-depth analysis of the Babylon Animation system... here... http://www.html5gamedevs.com/topic/2571-the-wingnut-chronicles/?do=findComment&comment=88196

It continues for what seems like... 100 posts.  If you would like to start a thread to address the myriad of confusions seen in that series of posts, please do. During the time I did that analysis, the forum was slow, so I'm sure you read each post, and took notes on all the places where confusion was seen.

Thanks a lot. 

The objective of that analysis... was to make diagrams.  After that, I was going to flesh-out our animation docs.  But there was little participation in the study, from others... a little from Blax. Few clarifications for the many questions that I asked (rhetorically, apparently).  And still to this day, I cannot figure out the story behind "animatable". 

But, just go read all those posts about Animation and Animatable... and see the many test playgrounds, and hear what I say.  The Wingnut Chronicles is named perfectly.  It is an average Joe user... talking continuously, while he learns the framework.  A chronicle of my journey.

But does it matter?  The framework api froze.  So there won't be any changes to the animation system... to make it easier to understand.  We won't be renaming Animatable.  Props and methods won't get name changes.  It's done.  Maybe someday I can learn how to diagram it and teach it better than it is currently taught.  Maybe not.  My mood right now is... avoid it like the plague.  Sorry, that's just the way it is... and I apologize if it seems hard-nosed (prick) of me.  Translation.  Poor communications between code author and docs writer... and a docs writer (me) that is not technically qualified to explain much of anything to anyone.

[Wingnut]

After re-read, looks like my study was halted when the docs moved to github... took some wind out of my sails.  Oh well, party on.

[GameMonetize]

I did not take notes to be honest. So many questions and then we moved to the github doc questions and I forgot about animations

Let's try this: An animatable is a running animation. or reverse way: An animation is a template used by an animatable when we want to effectively run an animation

[JCPalmer]

This marathon thread may have moved on, but on answering questions which are already documented, my preferred method is a RTFM response.  You can also be diplomatic if you want by in-lining any applicable image from doc when available & linking to a good starting point. Might seem cold, but I am not on their payroll.

"No playground no help", MPNH, seems reasonable, though most of my problems at this point are kind of complex to simplify.  Perhaps a public url or .babylon file as a backup.

[Wingnut]

Hi JC.  The topic is still alive, and you're always welcome to comment about anything, anytime, in this thread (as far as I am concerned).

Ok, you got a 12 yr old girl in Sudan... who gets exactly 2 hours on a computer per week... who can barely read English at all... and you're going to do a RTFM to her?  Really?  Hell, I can "make" her entire year... just by being an American who is willing to give her any response whatsoever, speak nothing of a kind and thorough one.  And I would never call her a "puppy", either. 

Maybe that's a difference between a person from New York or Paris, and a person from Wisconsin (my state of origin).  I won't be doing that (an rtfm)... ever.  Not a chance.  *shrug*  I am honored that this young lady has chosen to visit this forum and chosen to work with BJS, at all.  There are SO MANY extenuating circumstances that could be factors... I won't risk it.  I prefer to treat everyone like they are my best friend, brother, or sister.  And I have expectations (sometimes un-met) that all other forum custodians do the same.

Peace and love are the ways of the hippy... and that's what I am, at heart.  ymmv.    I think it is the way of mothers and Christians, too.  I am not an expert at being kind and loving, but I'll keep practicing until I get it right.  It takes just one "superb act of appreciated kindness" to heal 1000 kicks to my head.  *shrug* 

I live for LIKES.  I drink them like milk shakes.  Try it, you'll "like" it.    Thanks for your comments on the subject.  Got more?  Bring it.

PS:  I'm a virgin, too.  I'm just not very good at it.    (Ramada Thompson - Hot Shots - a movie)

[Dad72]

I love your philosophy Wingnut.

[gryff]

@Dad72, I think Wingy is an "old hippy" like me - or by some accident he got born on the wrong side of Lake Superior .

cheers, gryff

[Wingnut]

  Thanks for joining me on "tree-hugging bleeding-heart liberal" -island, Dad72!  It was getting rather cold and lonely, here.    I DID fart, but I didn't think it stank enough to completely clear this room/hemisphere.   

I'm glad you stayed and are willing to stand-up and face the potential hail storm.  I appreciate that.

In other words, thanks for loving my philosophy (about forum families). 

I hope you brought some food, because we might be here, abandoned, for a LONG TIME, with few visitors.  heh.

Are you following all this retarded symbolism that I'm attempting?  We still got the inflatable canoe that I brought with me.  I'm going to tough it out here, but you are welcome to use the canoe to paddle away... before the nukes start landing. 

PS: Gryff... I AM actually Canuck, but I came to the USA to dodge the RCMP draft.    Okay, okay, that's probably a lie.

[JohnK]

Here I am happily sitting on the fence looking both ways and not minding the splinters. Mind you my feet are getting wet in the ocean between THBHL island and RTFM/NPNH island. Why the fence? I am helping my grandchildren with their maths. Part of my thinking in doing this was to produce 'a manual' [advertising alert] http://countonmaths.blogspot.co.uk/ that they could to revise what we had covered. Do they ever read it? - no. When helping them I try hard to give them an understanding of what is going on rather than the mechanics. However at this stage in their learning they just want the mechanics. Then I think back to when I was learning maths and I reckon I first learned the mechanics and came to an understanding of techniques about two years after learning them. So after giving them an explanation of the whys and wherefore I end up showing the mechanics. Sometimes the approach I want to take to teaching is not what the learner is ready for. The beauty of having a number of approaches on the forum is that hopefully in the end the questioner gets an answer they need to progress. In the main looking through the forum it works very well.

I think there are dangers in swimming to one island or the other. Without care two tribes are formed and then belonging to one tribe or the other becomes more important than the family.

Thank goodness there are members such @Wingnut who welcome newcomers so warmly and encourage them unlike me who if I cannot understand the question because it is not sufficiently clear or gives many lines of code just moves on. Perhaps in the future I will consider welcoming them and suggest ways that can clarify the problem including the use of a PG. Perhaps doing this that would free @Deltakosh just to add his welcome to the increasing number of newcomers without his heart sinking at the impossibility of answering without there being clarity or a PG.

[GameMonetize]

I appreciate John:)

 

[Wingnut]

Yep, I agree, John.  Well said... except, YOU are every bit as valuable and friendly as most others.  Heck, you run a school for 3D graphics, using BJS, right?  That's plenty altruist, as well.  Sometimes we need to give the answers, and sometimes we need to give instructions on how to find the answers.

Off-topic: Would anyone like to see another strange and fun thing I do for a hobby?  I knew ya did.  I research strange Fibonacci happenings in nature.  This is probably the strangest.  A little science, a little mystery, a little fun. 

Sing it with me now:  "Too much time... on my hands. T-T-T-Too much time... on my hands."   [hear it]

I think we will see Mr. Wingy create many Fibonacci-based BJS demos, someday. 

[Wingnut]

Hi guys.

  Speaking of priorities and JcPalmer, I think we all need to take a whole bunch of chicken, and money, and anything else he wants... to his door.  In my opinion, Jeff is one of the hardest working and most-attacked BJS contributors to walk the planet.  Jeff is trying to keep up with a VERY fluid (constantly changing) Blender (and probably 3D Max too).  He is also being hounded by a changing webGL spec, and he is having to fend-off a continuously changing BJS framework.

How many of us really know what he does, and the hell he goes through?  Few.  Because of what JC works on... he is maybe THE most important "cog" in our machine.  If we took the time and effort to notice what he does, and document his plight... I think we all would be astounded.  If you look carefully, he is a 3-way lynch pin, and if we ever lost his contributions, we would be in a world of hurt.  The data he has to "process"... is likely similar to Mercury.  You can't count on it being solid or repeating, you can't grab it, and you can't firmly glue it to anything, or glue anything to it.

So, even though I pooped on his sidewalk, recently, I want us ALL to take notice of how very important he is.  Way to go, Jeff!  You are a serious hero of mine, and likely of all of us.  We should have 5 people in continuous training with you.  When JC needs a Blender demo of a certain type, or from a certain version, we should TRY to drop whatever we are doing, and get him the goods.

Thank you, Jeff!  Big time!  Keep up the great work!

[JCPalmer]

Wingnut, I do not rattle easily. I saw your post on the last page. Did not like it, but have learned to never respond in those situations at least till the next day.  By then, urge to either do battle or post some smart ass response had passed.  It is the only winning move.

I am very aggressive, and that comes with consequences sometimes.  My interest in the "like" economy is very limited.  I am also driving toward producing my own commercial quality apps.  Any large PR to BJS is to serve my own interests.  I do not need anyone to use any extension I have made or currently making.  This is just a mental exercise for me.  My work will be more useful for me longer term, if I can abstract it to a general API. 

This is most easily done by constructing extensions. I pulled out the POV & Morph extensions, because I was making many breaking changes.  The number of users was at or near 0.  I would not worry that my direction would be changed because you called me  "New Yorker".

Jeff