Best time to publish ongoing project?

[ekeimaja]

I have thinked about this now for a long time. So, if you have really great idea and you would like to begin developing it, what would be the time when you tell about it to public. 
If:
Too early: someone steals the original idea and creates game before you.
Too late: someone else invents the same idea and begins to create it.

So would it be the best time in that point when you have something real to show, early sketches etc. 

[rgk]

Honestly both of those factors don't matter. If you aren't going to copywrite stuff, etc... someone is fully allowed to steal your idea. Most likely your own idea is taken from a few other peoples ideas too.
If someone else invents the same idea and gets more popular then you well, that is the gambling part to making games.
So what I'm trying to say is: those two factors are just what we like to call being unlucky.

The issue I would worry about is, showing a unfinished game can disappoint people. Generally people don't like trying your game when they are going to notice numerous bugs, or truly unfinished concepts. Two things I would say before you release a game, make sure its fun and make sure your happy with it. If all your going to keep saying to people is its not finished, then it might be too early.

Show your friends/family and people who like testing, if you can find those people, way before you show it to the general public.

If your going to show concept art and stuff, make sure you don't take forever to release a actual game, because people will just move on to something playable.

[BliantFive]

10 hours ago, rgk said:

Honestly both of those factors don't matter. If you aren't going to copywrite stuff, etc... someone is fully allowed to steal your idea.

This is simply wrong. You dont "copyright" stuff. Every piece of art that exceeds an amount of quality is protected by copyright in most countries.

Quote

Too early: someone steals the original idea and creates game before you.

This is a common thought everyone has from time to time. But here are the simple facts:

• a good idea is worth 10$
• a genius idea is worth 35$

Just get that paranoia out of your head.

Ideas are worthless. Everyone can come up with a good idea from time to time. Execution is what counts.

Thats where most people(me included) struggle.

If you have never made a game, than this is my advice:

• Start now! Just start making your game.
• Tell someone or dont, it doesnt make a difference as long as it keeps you motivated.
• When it is playable, even on a very basic level, show it to people you trust.
• Then update it, or start something new or think about monetization, or become a professional wrestler.

Having an idea is not the hard part.

Get going and worry when you have something of worth.

[mattstyles]

1 hour ago, BliantFive said:

Ideas are worthless. Everyone can come up with a good idea from time to time. Execution is what counts.

I could not disagree more.

Coding is hard, yes, but it isn't insurmountably hard, anyone with persistence can learn how to code, given a large enough amount of time and intelligence isn't even important. Any one can learn to code.

But knowing what to code, well thats the thing.

The idea is everything. Everything starts with that spark.

Coding/implementation isn't even a concern until you have that idea.

For example, I simply do not care how Zuck chose to code Facebook, it makes 0 difference to me what language it is written in, how it is written, how smart (or otherwise) the code is, what patterns the programmers use, none of it is important. As long as the application does what I need it to do then I'll enjoy that application. I don't use Facebook/Twitter/Web Browsers/Games because they are written in a particular way, I use them because they fulfil a role/need, and they fulfil that role/need because of the idea that they implement. Implementation choices are simply performance vs development time.

Of course, you can pinch an idea and make it better, Facebook is a prime example here, Zuck didn’t suddenly imagine social engineering, he just leveraged it better than his contemporaries, but it is the ideas that he (and then his team) implemented that made Facebook the most powerful app on the planet, not how they implemented it.

The choices you make regarding implementation only serve to fulfil the idea using whatever criteria you use to gauge success (usually time, which then equates to value).

Quote

So would it be the best time in that point when you have something real to show, early sketches etc.

I don't know the answer here, timing is usually very important in a product's success or failure, @rgk has already explained why timing is so important.

For hobby projects however, its less important. As a hobby the project is largely just for you, if other people like it and want to contribute/play then that is a bonus, eventually maybe there will be a chance to make some coin out of it, if you want to move in that direction.

 

 

[BliantFive]

35 minutes ago, mattstyles said:

I could not disagree more.

Coding is hard, yes, but it isn't insurmountably hard, anyone with persistence can learn how to code, given a large enough amount of time and intelligence isn't even important. Any one can learn to code.

Thats true. Anyone can learn to code. 

It just takes a couple of years.

Anyone can come up with ideas. I would also say anyone can come up with great ideas.

How many games with genius ideas did you play that noone build?

A genius idea in your head is worthless. A mediocre idea(that anyone can have) that is executed can make you rich, help a million people, win you respect, make you proud, satisfied, give you self worth.

Ideas are limitless, all over the place, worthless.

I know many people who have great ideas all the time.

Execution on the other hand... I dont know many people that really do things. 

 

[plicatibu]

Ideas are not the most important part in the business. Neither coding.

Let's face: how many ideas are really implemented? As most people I have tons of ideas every month but almost none of them are developed.

Also, any good programmer can copy your idea and implement it. It doesn't matter whether your idea is still a concept or a product / service already in the market.

IF  your idea really becomes a real product / service then you have to go invest the most of your efforts on marketing.

I think that nowadays marketing is the most important thing. The best product with a poor marketing will never succeed. A product with a acceptable quality but very well promoted may generate a lot of money.

That said, I'd starting marketing my game only when it were at least 70% done. The reason: at this point it probably will already using the definitive images and so it should be looking attractive.

Just my 2 cents.

[Sebi]

Art and Audio can be (and usually is by default) copyrighted, game ideas and mechanics however are free to use by anyone and rightly so.

You can waste your money on a patent, but you won't be able to enforce it in court. And trying to sue some shady dev who is sitting in a country on the other side of the planet takes a lot effort, time and money.

The one thing that got games to where they are today is the constant copying of ideas. Imagine the people creating the first FPS would have the sole monopoly on that genre. GG.

The chances that someone creates a blatant 1:1 copy of your game is very slim, especially before you release your game.

So the only advice I can give is to start promoting your game as early as you have something to show on any media you have access to. You might even find people who want to back up your game or you could start a kickstarter.

Often games are rejected by publishers, even when they are really good, just because the dev didn't have any promotion material or no one ever heard of that game before.

And if you mess up the marketing, then you will miss out on some great deals. Many games even start promoting as early as 1-1.5 years before the actual release.

[prvi_treti]

I also couldn't disagree more about ideas being worthless. Ideas are dime a dozen, good ideas aren't.

Even though classic response of "It's execution that matters , if I give same idea to 5 people they would come back with 5 different implementation" is true, it doesn't change the fact that good ideas are not that quite common (especially if its been processed and made feasible with a GDD)

But, even if you don't publicly declare your idea to world, let a limited number of people to test your idea in order to prevent a "falling in love with your idea meets Dunning-Kruger effect" situation. Because everybody thinks their idea is great, no one says "Ok this is a mediocre idea but I will stick to it while I can find a great one"

And for time to go public, I'd wait until having a MVPish build on my own but you may prefer after having a master plan and start to work on it right now.  There's no point to declare if you won't have much progress after all.

[Umz]

I like this post. It's a difficult question with no real answer that can be 'proven' or put another way, 'works every time'.

Taking into account what everyone has said, and from my own experiences, here's what I'd put in:

I agree with @mattstyles Your Idea has to be good ( if it's not, stay there until it is), but, as @BliantFive said, it's by no means as valuable as you think. I, he, and you wouldn't buy an idea, because once you've said it, what value does it have? It's anyones and everyones. (That's also true once you've built and released the finished product).

Implementation is a Monster that kills many Great ideas. It has to be implemented REALLY well to the standard you first imagined it. Without this step, or sometimes even with it, the Great Game Idea of The Year is just like any other ( Had my fair share, haha ).

Marketing is another hurdle you have to jump, and jump well, exceptionally well to have major success as @plicatibu so elegantly covered, and it should take up a large % of time in your project plan (which you have, of course ) because convincing people to play a really great game, is actually quite difficult.

So, given all of this when is the best time to start promoting?

Well, I'd say, there is no 'is all, end all' solution. All depends on your game and your plan. I.e.

If I'm building a Sim City, I'd promote early, and get as many test players as possible with incremental releases, testing how each of the features is accepted. Because it's going to be my only project with regular updates, I won't ever have a block of time to just promote and I need lots of feedback.

If I'm building a Flappy Bird. I can afford to do all the development in a block and promote like hell when it's done.

And so on.. I'm sure @photonstorm should have some insight as to what worked best for him?

[MelSmits]

I think there are a few phases to a project. And in every phase you promote differently.

Idea phase

You've come up with a cool idea, maybe (depending on how often you've done this before) you've set up some basic functionality as a proof of concept. But all in all you're still very much thinking about the game and all the different stuff you want it to do and how that would work. 

How to promote: don't. Tell your family and friends if you want, talk about it on forums like these if you want, especially if you need help, but at this point nobody should actually be trying to play it or even looking at it.

 

Coding phase

You've got the basic ideas down and you're wokring on implementing them. This phase is usually pretty long. You're writing code, creating assets, all that. 

What you need to think about here are features and versions. 

What features will your game have? Which ones will you need to do first (can't work on enemy pathing AI if there aren't players or obstacles or enemies yet), and so on. Ideally, you need a list of which features go together to make something that "works". Doesn't have to be finished, just working and doing something probably unimpressive like showing the player walking around. Take that list of features. When that's done, that's v0.1. Then make a list of features that will be the next "done/working" thing, that's v0.2. Try to think 2 or 3 versions ahead. It's perfectly fine to end up at v0.76 before you release, the number police isn't going to bust you for it. 

Any time where you up the version number is a time where you can consider starting your marketing. v0.1 probably isn't that time, but v0.4 might be. 

During this phase, you should have a decent and developing idea of what your game is about. You need to work on some non-coding things: 

* Elevator pitch. If people ask you what you're doing, you need to be able to explain what your game is in 30 seconds or less. Without words like "sort of, kind of," or "like WoW but different". It only needs to state the important things, like "My game is a space MMO where everything is player-driven. The economy, the building of ships and spacestations, owning star systems or going pirate in the far reaches of space is all possible, but you'll need allies. And money. Lots of money. You can even pay for your subscription if you make enough in-game money." That's EVE online. Don't get into the tiny details. At this point I don't care that various systems have various levels of security, or that you can choose from a number of different races. Just the basics and some stuff that makes it different from other games. 
This is what you'd put as the account info for your game's Twitter account, for example. 

* Some art. Even if you're still working with placeholder images in your actual code, make at least: a user image you can use, and some basic splash images. You know those mobile games that show stuff in the trailer that's not really in the game, because the game looks pretty disappointing if they'd just show ingame footage alone so some concept artist came up with a cool artist's impression? You need something like that to make people look. 

*A decentlooking website. Design matters. 

*If you want a patreon or some other money-making scheme, here's where you set it up. Except for kickstarter, do that when you have something to show to people.

How to promote: You've got the elevator pitch, some art, maybe some screenshots. You can start talking about this on social media now. Maybe even make an account just for your game (instead of you personally), but don't expect anyone to follow it just yet. At this point you're just talking, "Just implemented AI pathing in *game name!* Works better than I thought, enemies are navigating complex mazes! #gamedev #yourgame"  Set up the website where people can find it if they google your game, but don't host the game on it yet. Alpha version coming soon. 

 

Alpha phase

A couple of versions in you should have a decent working thing that demonstrates some of the key features in your game. It's not polished and it's far from finished, but it's something you can show to people. 

Now you can start actually promoting. At this point you need to decide what you actually want. Do you want a kickstarter? Do you want to release this as one finished thing like "BAM LOOK AT THIS GLORIOUS THING!" or do you want people along for the ride since alpha, like minecraft of dwarf frotress?

How to promote: Blast it on social media. Spam about it on the forums for every site you can think of. PRobably best to phrase it like "I would like some feedback so I can take the opinions of the community into account during development", and not "check out this awesome thing!" because it is an alpha, it is not awesome yet. 

Your social media should all link to your website, preferably with each post. Every time you update or something significant happens (100 followers, one week since alpha release, etc.) you post about it on the website. It's important that your game seems alive. Reply to people on social media. Don't feed trolls. 

 

Beta phase

Now your game should be almost ready for a release. Like if v1.0 is the finished game, you're at v0.8 now. Maybe the previous thing worked and you have followers. Maybe you have that kickstarter cash. Beta is a good time to actually make the game available to people, making sure they know it is a beta. You could think about steam greenlight at this point, for example. Put it on the app store. Put it on Kongregate, try and see if you can get it on Facebook, that sort of thing. 

How to promote: Send it out. Send it to reviewers, even/especially the big names. Spam it on every single gaming or gamedev related subreddit or forum you can think of. Send it to other devs with a bigger following. Send it to freaking Notch. Ask them what they think, whether they like it and if they do, could they post something about it and help you out (they were once just starting out, just like you)? Even if they don't want to promote it, they might say something like "It's looking pretty good, lots of promise!", ask them if you can put that quote on your website. Don't be afraid to actually start a conversation instead of writing one formal letter and one formal thankyou. Send it to your local newspaper ("local man makes indie game"), pay for google ads, pay for facebook ads, do whatever you can to make your shit show up at the top of the list EVERYWHERE. Many of these things won't generate a damn thing, but it doesn't matter. 

When people actually start playing it, keep a close eye on their reactions. They don't like it? Don't blast them, figure out what went wrong. They like it? Share it. They find something hilarious (even if it is a bug), share it! Funny is better than positive. Someone writes a review, share it, put it on your website. Someone makes fanart, share it!

 

Final release

Same thing as beta, actually. Contact all those people you contacted again, even if they didn't reply or like it the first time. 

Now you want to make sure people know what's in the future. Which features are still on your list? How often do you plan to update? Adress concerns from the community, put their input on your future feature list. Kerbal Space Program is a very good example here. 

 

Anyway, long story and I'm sure I missed a lot. But it should give you some pointers at least! 

[wiseDev]

Best tip: ignore everything they've told you in this thread.

This world isn't a Meritocracy. You don't get what you want by having talent and working hard. Why would someone choose to clean bathrooms instead of making games? And still, there are thousands of millions of humans cleaning bathrooms, serving hamburgers, etc.

If you don't have very powerful human connections in the industry, just forget about it. Forget about making a living out of anything that isn't physically or emotionally painful to do. I tried to make a living out of developing games, and I barely was able to cover rent and food with it. Now it's just my hobby.

 

[Umz]

46 minutes ago, wiseDev said:

Best tip: ignore everything they've told you in this thread.

This world isn't a Meritocracy. You don't get what you want by having talent and working hard. Why would someone choose to clean bathrooms instead of making games? And still, there are thousands of millions of humans cleaning bathrooms, serving hamburgers, etc.

If you don't have very powerful human connections in the industry, just forget about it. Forget about making a living out of anything that isn't physically or emotionally painful to do. I tried to make a living out of developing games, and I barely was able to cover rent and food with it. Now it's just my hobby.

 

You're a bulshitter. Just because you didn't make it, doesn't mean it can't be made. Don't tell people this depressing bulshit.

You can't disregard the wisdom of others who are actually doing it and making it work, when you couldn't do it yourself. You're not qualified to speak on the matter if you have nothing constructive to add.

And Yes, you can make a living out of making games. But out of interest, I'd like to know just how many avenues you tried, how many phones you called, how many emails you sent for you to make such a bold statement. I'd like to know your whole marketing strategy, publisher list, market research. budget plan, etc. I'd also like to see how many times you revised it for you to come to this conclusion.

[wiseDev]

1 minute ago, Umz said:

You're a bulshitter. Just because you didn't make it, doesn't mean it can't be made. Don't tell people this depressing bulshit.

You can't disregard the wisdom of others who are actually doing it and making it work, when you couldn't do it yourself. You're not qualified to speak on the matter if you have nothing constructive to add.

And Yes, you can make a living out of making games. But out of interest, I'd like to know just how many avenues you tried, how many phones you called, how many emails you sent for you to make such a bold statement. I'd like to know your whole marketing strategy, publisher list, market research. budget plan, etc. I'd also like to see how many times you revised it for you to come to this conclusion.

You're the bullshitter. Just because there are public speaking scammers, writing scammers, and all kinds of scammers telling you clichés like you can accomplish anything if you believe in it, doesn't make it true. It's not depressing, it's just the truth. Depressing is, on the other hand, to be in denial. You can make lots of fun things in life, you just can't make legal money without investing money and having the resources and the connections, and even with these three factors 96% of businesses fail.

Will Smith says this in the Pursuit of Happiness:

“Don't ever let someone tell you, you can't do something. Not even me. You got a dream, you got to protect it. People can’t do something themselves, they want to tell you you can’t do it. You want something, go get it. Period.” 

Beautiful. It's good poetry, but it's not even close to reality. You should be thanking your parents for telling you at age of seven that you can't fly and you won't ever be able to, because if you try to fly you will get hurt due to fall-related injuries, or you could've ended wasting your whole life jumping around like a retard with no success.

I've read your opinion before posting, and I can say with 100% confidence that you're not doing it and making it work. If you haven't accomplished anything, why would you go around giving tips to people? You can't give tips, much less lecture me. So no, you can't make a living out of making games with just raw willpower, talent, time, and lots of self-help books, it doesn't work like that. Before you ask me to tell you my whole marketing strategy, publisher list, market research and budget plan, I'd like you to take a moment and ask yourself this question: What have you earned?

 

[Umz]

9 minutes ago, wiseDev said:

I've read your opinion before posting, and I can say with 100% confidence that you're not doing it and making it work. If you haven't accomplished anything, why would you go around giving tips to people? You can't give tips, much less lecture me. So no, you can't make a living out of making games with just raw willpower, talent, time, and lots of self-help books, it doesn't work like that. Before you ask me to tell you my whole marketing strategy, publisher list, market research and budget plan, I'd like you to take a moment and ask yourself this question: What have you earned?

Hahaha, it's people like you that stop others achieving. YOU don't know, because you haven't done it . I haven't earned much. I've been revising my strategies to make more. But this month, it's about £1000 ish, so $1500~ give or take, just from HTML5 games. Now that may be too small for your expenses, but I can survive for the month on that. And since it is working, I can call that an accomplishment, therefore give tips based on what I know.

You can speak with 100% confidence, but 0% experience. Therefore, by definition, you're a bulshitter.

And I made my money from contract work, before you ask. Not generating that amount from my own games, but still from developing games (or does that not count in your books ). So before you swear by the book it doesn't work, I just wanted to know you've tried everything and spoke to everyone, to justify that statement?

[wiseDev]

Just now, Umz said:

Hahaha, it's people like you that stop others achieving. YOU don't know, because you haven't done it . I haven't earned much. I've been revising my strategies to make more. But this month, it's about £1000 ish, so $1500~ give or take, just from HTML5 games. Now that may be too small for your expenses, but I can survive for the month on that. And since it is working, I can call that an accomplishment, therefore give tips based on what I know.

You can speak with 100% confidence, but 0% experience. Therefore, by definition, you're a bulshitter.

And I made my money from contract work, before you ask. Not generating that amount from my own games, but still from developing games (or does that not count in your books ). So before you swear by the book it doesn't work, I just wanted to know you've tried everything and spoke to everyone, to justify that statement?

I didn't want to, but I guess I have entered in a nonsensical discussion. Nevertheless, thanks for making it easy for me to get out of it:

it's about £1000 ish. 

First of all, 1K is garbage in the real world. Once you leave your parent's house you will understand why.

Not generating that amount from my own games

I'm glad you become partially sincere when someone pushes you a little.

As for your question: Yes, I tried everything, and it was only after trying everything and speaking to everyone that I came to the conclusion that it was a waste of time. If anyone could become a successful entrepreneur, who'd choose to have a boss?? I'd give you a more detailed answer but I don't think you want to understand the truth. Not yet, at least. Happy trying!

[Umz]

2 minutes ago, wiseDev said:

I didn't want to, but I guess I have entered in a nonsensical discussion. Nevertheless, thanks for making it easy for me to get out of it:

it's about £1000 ish. 

First of all, 1K is garbage in the real world. Once you leave your parent's house you will understand why.

Not generating that amount from my own games

I'm glad you become partially sincere when someone pushes you a little.

As for your question: Yes, I tried everything, and it was only after trying everything and speaking to everyone that I came to the conclusion that it was a waste of time. If anyone could become a successful entrepreneur, who'd choose to have a boss?? I'd give you a more detailed answer but I don't think you want to understand the truth. Not yet, at least. Happy trying!

Hahaha I see. So because you can't generate that amount from self-publishing, you believe you tried everything. To me, that's very short sighted. You're still yet to state even a little of your experience, efforts or results? So until you give at least some insight into why and how you've formulated your opinions, I, and few others will be able to grasp this truth you've been whipped by.

And in reference to your statement, 1K is garbage? I've never come across that opinion before. If you have some of that garbage at your disposal, please send it my way ,

Also, if you minimise your costs below your earnings, mathematically, you're going to be OK. Study economics, and read up on accounts and finance. You'll understand why pick your luxuries and budget. But thank you, I am happy trying! I hope you're happy too, doing whatever pain-inducing physical and mental labour it is you're working at.

[mattstyles]

I like this, a bit of very brutal discussion, thankfully some points are actually being raised.

@wiseDev sorry to hear you didn't make it, as you point out, many don't, sorry to hear it has burned you pretty bad, as you've turned to it as a hobby I hope you've taken yourself in another direction and found happiness there.

However, do you think your story is different from many other people chasing their dreams? It sounds like you think that your circumstances were different from high-profile high-achievers like Branson, Sugar or Musk (for example, I understand they're not gamers), you mention denial, if you think they had privileges you did not, then you may very well be wrong. What about the stories of people from very under-privileged backgrounds who come to Europe/US/wherever with nothing, less educated than the rest of the workforce, maybe struggling with language, with 0 contacts, and make a fantastic life for themselves. You mentioned Will Smith, by his own admission he is no better at acting than any of his peers (and worse than many), he attributes his success to determination and the ability to work harder than most everybody else. Einstein said the same, "It's not that I'm so smart, it's just that I stay with problems longer".

You bring up a good argument but its about managing risk. Everyone of those high-profile success stories you read involves a huge amount of risk. Musk spent all of his money on spaceX, and he had a butt-ton of it by then, but he couldn't pay his bills, he cannibalised himself to chase another dream. Bezos the same at Amazon, Ev Williams the same at Twitter and there's a famous story of Zuckerberg having to offer the office painter shares because he thought he could pay his bill and could not (thankfully for the painter he survived that lack of cash-flow and its certainly the most profitable job of his career now!). I don't have any stories pertaining specifically to the gaming world, but there will be many.

@Umz a £1000 isn't very much, but this is a start and you are managing risk to be able to cope with that. I wish you all the luck in the world that you can turn that 1k into 1.2k, then 1.5k, then 2k, then 5, then 10 etc etc etc. Others here have done so, I don't think they magically had a rolodex of industry giants to call upon, nor thumb-screws to extort incredible deals, they had talent and tenacity for sure though.

 

I'm not sure how this turned into a war about whether moving into the game industry is a viable economic decision. The discussion is purely about when to release your games, these can be hobby or professional.

[Umz]

On 15/07/2016 at 6:56 PM, Umz said:

I haven't earned much. I've been revising my strategies to make more. But this month, it's about £1000 ish, so $1500~ give or take, just from HTML5 games.

@mattstyles I'd just like to pull your attention to my quote. I did admit it's not much, but it's enough to prove it works, and also, the month is only half way through so I was using personal experience, numbers and examples to back up my opinion. He failed to use anything to back up his.

This attack of mine ( I accept that ) was only launched because he discredited me when he said, but did not justify his point with any actual evidence:

On 15/07/2016 at 5:23 PM, wiseDev said:

Best tip: ignore everything they've told you in this thread.

I stand by my action I stand by my claim. He discredited me, then made a sweeping statement that isn't even slightly true. I make better money in Web Development, just HTML5 games is slower to build up, but it does work. So when he said:

On 15/07/2016 at 5:23 PM, wiseDev said:

If you don't have very powerful human connections in the industry, just forget about it. Forget about making a living out of anything that isn't physically or emotionally painful to do. I tried to make a living out of developing games, and I barely was able to cover rent and food with it. Now it's just my hobby.

I believe I was justified in asking him to share his tried and tested business strategies, so we could all learn from his example, what-not-to-do or some things to do we haven't yet tried. Because surely he must have done very many things more than I to be able to make such a bold and all-encompassing statement. In the end, he ran from the battle because he had neither the experience, expertise or resilience to make it work but kept the arrogance and audacity to discredit others.

So my opinion about when to release a project is still valid

[mattstyles]

21 hours ago, Umz said:

I'd just like to pull your attention to my quote. I did admit it's not much, but it's enough to prove it works, and also, the month is only half way through so I was using personal experience, numbers and examples to back up my opinion. He failed to use anything to back up his.

@Umz hey umz, yeah, I know, thats why I said you're managing that risk, and the expectation. Ludum Dare run a couple occasionally based on making a solitary £/$/€/whatever with the sole purpose of adding business to hobby, you've clearly far exceeded that and are doing exceptionally well to approach the point where you're making "liveable" money, and hopefully far beyond that. I hope you make that 2k for the month, and continue to increase it.

For what its worth, I always thought your opinion is valid, its an opinion after all.

I'd always tell people to follow their dreams, but @wiseDev brings up a good point about tempering those dreams with real life (even if that point was not particularly well made). Clearly you are doing just that.